This page preserves a discussion thread from the original AirgunOne.com community forum, active from 2008 until the site went offline. It's republished here for reference, in full, including the community banter. One outdated, offensive word in a single post has been left out. If you're a contributor to this thread and would like something removed or credited differently, contact info@airgunguide.com.
First Impressions
super6 wrote: "As part of a 'transaction' I received a new Hatsan made Daisy/Winchester 850X22. I think it's overpriced at around $220 but this one is not simply a 1000 with a .22 barrel. For starters the fore end screws resemble those on the new Talon/Falcons AND there are not one, or two, but three trigger adjustment screws. Two are in the trigger in front of the blade and the third is behind the trigger. What do they do? Beats me as there is no trigger adjustment instructions in the manual."
"As it's too dark for pics and I'm still hunting for my chrony, which I packed so it would be easy to find, I'll have to continue this manana. First impressions are good tho'. Nice wood and metal and the stock suits me fine as the open sights fall right into place when I shoulder it. I'll try to post some pictures and maybe some numbers, if I get lucky. Maybe a side-by-side comparison with the Winchester 1000, especially the triggers."
"And before the purists jump on Hatsans, I don't care as I think they are good guns with serious power and just need some love out of the box to become great hunting guns. I've got other projects to do first before this gun gets a serious tune, so this will be a first impressions type of thread."
Community Discussion
joek wrote: "does it also have the SAS recoil reduction? been waiting to hear back from Daisy. I own a winchester 1000x that had a few problems related to poor assembly, the parts are well made. A walnut stocked gun for a $100 is a deal. I like hatsan's also"
super6 wrote: "Two-stage adjustable trigger and SAS system and real machined dovetails... Hatsan is trying!"
peicemakerss22 wrote: "wow! what a magestic bird that bald eagle is... and that hatsan rifle looks like a real keeper! i cant believe that they can offer a gun with such awesome features and a highly figured walnut stock like that for the price... i gotta get one before the turks realise they could get away with charging twice as much for thier guns..."
joek wrote: "How effective is the SAS anti recoil?"
C.A.P wrote: "It is a beautiful wood on that. It does appear Hatan is listening."
super6 wrote: "OK, here's some info. The Winchester is the Hatsan Model 95 SAS with the front sight and rear receiver cap/safety off the Model 135. Additionally, the butt ugly scope rail is gone and replaced by nicely machined dovetails in the receiver with a small screw in scope stop. Overall, the wood and metal are good. I took the pictures just after shooting and didn't bother to wipe the gun down plus there is a touch of condensation due to the temperature differential."
"Shooting impressions: mixed. Twang, torque, and some dieseling. But surprisingly light recoil compared to the 1000 if my memory serves me correctly. I was shooting cheap 14.3gr. Crosman pointeds and was hitting trees 30-35 yds out with a nice whack. Hatsan doesn't exaggerate velocity to the extent of other mfgs. but I won't know for sure until I chrony this gun. Yes, it has an adjustable two-stage trigger but w/o instructions I need to play with it some more."
"Hatsan's new patented SAS system, or Shock Absorbing System, actually seems to work as the recoil is very subdued. I'll have a better feel for it when I dig out a 1000 from storage. I'll also remove the stocks from both guns to see the SAS system in the forearm and get a better look at the trigger. My guess is that the trigger is the same one with a factory version of the two-stage mod included with the old trigger tuning guide (search on RSE Daisy) but with three adjustment screws, it goes beyond that."
"This gun needs a routine tune, maybe a replacement piston seal and likely a tight fitting rear guide and a proper lube. With that, a mild trigger tune and proper adjustment, this may be the best Hatsan to make it to the U.S. This is a gun that shoulders nicely and handles well with its 17" barrel. If it's shooting around 800fps with 14.3gr pellets this could be a great hunting gun that won't keep you up at night if you ding the stock!"
"Is it worth $220.00? No, I think Daisy needs to get it down to around $179.00. Then you have a harder shooting .22 than Gamos in it's price range with FAR less plastic. As far as Chicoms go, the Winchester is probably closest to a TF89 in .22. A chrony and a scope will tell. More to come. Ray"
joek wrote: "Its the same as the new webley stingray trigger sans the drop safety."
peicemakerss22 wrote: "I think a hatsan is going to be my next gun. I really like the look of the 1100xsu... looks about on par with the 1000 (perhaps a bit faster) but with the new trigger system and an underlever configuration with a bolt action breech, and of course the signature turkish black walnut furniture... BUT... Is it worth 300 bones... i dont know."
super6 wrote: "Well, I'm back... been busy blowing holes in my budget... heh... heh! If joek is right on the trigger design then Hatsan is making some serious changes. Though I wouldn't call it the 'new' Stingray as Hatsan has stopped production of Webley branded guns with the apparent total demise of Webley. I'll get to tearing it down along with a 1000 for comparison purposes."
"I too am intrigued by the 1100XSU but can't figure out what the idiots at Daisy are up to. That gun probably rivals a 460 in power yet it's only available as a .177. Both new Winchesters haven't budged as far as price since their release. And with it being the holiday season in a lousy economy, Daisy doesn't seem to care about selling many of these guns. I also haven't seen any real marketing effort on the part of Daisy. I guess they're content to sell a few 1000s and a bunch of Chinese BB guns. Umarex doesn't seem to mind retailers discounting Talons and Falcons including the new upgraded versions now."
"But Umarex is clueless in its own way as three months AFTER Pyramyd started shipping the new versions of the Talons and Falcons, I was talking with their parts people who vehemently denied that there were ANY changes to the Talons and Falcons and that they, Umarex, would have to approve those changes. They even refused to open a box and check out what I was telling them. So, what that tells me is that Umarex isn't listening to its customers but Hatsan is! I must have caught them on a bad day as they openly talk about the old and new versions."
"So here we have a Turkish company trying to make inroads in the U.S. market and apparently listening to their customers and responding with improved and new airguns, and they're stuck with two distributors who, seemingly, could care less. If they had one distributor who carried their entire line and sold parts like Crosman, they'd be on the map and giving people serious alternatives to the Gamos and the Crosman chicom guns."
"Google Hatsan and check out their English language website. They have an even more powerful underlever that seems to share its powerplant with the Talon/Falcons and the model the Talon/Falcons are based on comes with a wood stock also. Those would make for some attractive hunting springers in .22 and .25! Yes, I have UK Webleys and BSAs and nice Beemans and HWs, but I have as much fun with Hatsans and B26s and Mendozas and I want to buy a Cometa Fenix carbine in .22 from Spain when they make it here in the next month. I'm totally agnostic, I like all springers and I like working on all springers. Even the very expensive ones aren't perfect out of the box! I have a brand new Beeman Kodiak (Webley Patriot) with exactly five .25 pellets through it. The Patriot is Jim Maccari's favorite gun. Guess what... it twangs and vibrates like a m****f****r right out of the box. And Beeman charged an extra $100.00 for the Kodiak which is 100% identical to the Webley Patriot UK model. And neither gun was cheap but they are gorgeous and desperately need tuning. Some of the Beeman/HW guns have so much lube in them from the factory, I'm surprised they can even shoot. And the RWS/Diana guns are usually dry as a bone... go figure."
"That's today's editorial. Merry Christmas everybody!!!"
super6 wrote: "Oh, I forgot... will Beeman survive????????"
joek wrote: "looks like Daisy/Winchester are shifting to chinese production on all models eventually, explains why Pyramid and Daisy would not answer any questions. Looks like Webley is still kicking... the new stingray."
peicemakerss22 wrote: "you make some very good points, super6. i checked out that link and it looks as if maybe the daisy branded springers have been outsourced to china but the winchesters are still turkish. My logic in saying that is the fact that the winchesters still have very fine quality walnut stocks and other features you wouldn't readily find on any chicom (perhaps on some of the new, high end BAM rifles, but still, youre not gonna find walnut anything on a chinese gun). Ive also taken a look at the hatsan website and as you said, they are really trying provide quality products to thier customers. now, that being said, it puzzles me that a seemingly reputable company like Hatsan would have contracts at all with dipshits like daisy and umarex. Perhaps someday, daisy and umarex's contracts with hatsan will expire and they can begin directly importing and marketing thier guns to the us market. in regards to you asking if beeman will survive, well all i can say is that, yes they make very good guns, but who in thier right mind would pay $600 for a spring piston gun when a nice pcp like the marauder can be had for $400, it just doesn't make sense. Perhaps thats why they have really started pushing thier 'beeman' branded chicoms."
bnations wrote: "Ray, Any chance of seeing pictures of the SAS system? Some of us were discussing it over on the yellow last month and there's a lot of anticipation as to what SAS is exactly and how it works. I believe that you are one of the few folks with an SAS Hatsan at the moment."
"Personally, I think that it could be one of those elegantly simple solutions to hold sensitivity in springers. Or, it could be a marketing gimmick ;-) Time will tell. BTW, from the diagram, it seems to me that the two screws in front of the trigger would adjust 1st and 2nd stage travel while the one behind would adjust the pull weight for both as a whole. Although, adjusting the travel should affect the pull weight due to subtly altering the distances of the sear engagements, so they would probably all sort of bleed over as you do the fine-tuning."
"I must say that the stock is very, very pretty. The metalwork that can be seen is very impressive as well. Barring any nasty surprises hidden inside the gun, you might be onto a sleeper here at the $220 price range. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on it so far."
super6 wrote: "I'm rearranging my RV this weekend to free up some work space and better picture taking. And I'll read the directions for my Sony camera to do close-ups. My impression is that the SAS system actually reduces felt recoil. Does anyone know if it's in the second generation Walther Talon/Falcons?"
"Peice, Beeman makes nothing. It has always been a distributor and put their name on other companies products. They did well when they focused on European guns. But after the Beemans sold the company it decided to be another Umarex and be all things to all people from WalMart guns to expensive springers and PCPs. By the way I have some of those expensive springers and so far have avoided PCPs in order to avoid bankruptcy... hah!"
C.A.P wrote: "It is in the Talons and Falcons. I have shot them. Its noticeably different!"
super6 wrote: "But Chris, is different also better to you? I'm still on the fence with the Winchester as far as perceived recoil. But I may be too sensitive to the twang and vibration to appreciate it. I'd want at least a piston seal handy if I were to open her up and give it a tune. I'm confident that is all the gun needs. Maybe a little stone work on the trigger."
"That new Webley Stingray looks like a Hatsan made gun. Anyone?"
joek wrote (quoting bnations' earlier photo request): "here is a photo I found on a Russian forum"
bnations replied: "Joe, that's exactly the picture that I was looking for! Thanks for digging it up off of the Russian forum. It appears that the SAS is essentially a (nylon?) bushing through which the forearm stock screws pass, but what do they actually screw into? Each other?"
joek wrote: "Just ordered one from Pyramid. hope I hit the nice wood lottery like the gun in the photo's"
super6 wrote: "I'll try to post some pics later."
joek wrote: "Oh well, my 850 has a straight grained walnut stock, but I'll keep it anyway. pulled the action out of the stock for a good look. It has the Quattro trigger group! identical to the one below, It appears that they cut the Webley style side saftey off short to adapt to the hatsan style. Fit and finish is a lot better than my Winchester 1000xs. Unless I find any major defects IMHO the gun is well worth the money"
joek wrote (follow-up): "also noticed the forearm screw holes have steel cups"
bnations wrote: "Joe, that's an interesting forearm screw system in the last picture. I'm not sure that I've ever seen one quite like it. Does the bolt pass from one side of the forearm to the other through the SAS bushing? Then the hollow nut screws down on the bolt threads to keep it in place. I'm guessing here :-) What role does the little screw in the photo play. If my guesses are correct, then this fastener system would only touch the powerplant itself when it's inside the bushing, which would serve to mitigate the effects of pressure from your hand holding the forearm."
"Theoretically, this could make the rifle less sensitive to how you hold the forearm, meaning we could spend more time enjoying shooting and less time fiddling with where to place our off-hand. If true, then that's an outstanding new feature!"
joek wrote: "correct the small screw locks the hollow nut. the rear action screw just pulls the action down into the stock and the rear cap bears against the stock. the stock also has a re-enforcing dowel in the wrist."
Pete wrote: "I have been looking very hard at a .22 1000fps Hatty 125.. Even though I once said I would never buy another Hatsan.. But I think the gun has evolved since the Mod 75... Trying to fined out if the gun I'm after has the SAS system & the new trigger.... Its the one below..."
super6 wrote: "Joe: you got the jump on me but that's fine. I've been wandering around for more suitible living arrangements out in the boonies while at the same time rearranging my RV to accomodate a work area for the guns and a boatload of computer stuff. I feel like I'm trying to cram 12lbs. of stuffing in a 6lb. bird."
"The trigger assembly needs some cleaning, some honing, a touch of moly and it's ready for prime time. I'll tear down the gun and see if a Maccari piston seal can be adapted somehow. All the gun needs is a routine tune and lube. Still haven't found my chrony but I know where my Sony instruction manual is and maybe I can take some decent close-ups. Can't believe Daisy is dropping Hatsan and going with even cheaper and crappier Chicoms. Anybody got a second generation Talon/Falcon? I think it has the SAS but not sure what they did to the trigger."
joek wrote: "From what I could gather on the non US forums, all except the two low end hatsans will be getting the new trigger"
peicemakerss22 wrote: "now if umarex drops the hatsans, then hatsan may be able to slip in and sell thier products directly to us consumers. And that will be great! Anyway, im not sure i understand how this so called shock absorber system works. it looks like a sheet metal tube encasing a nylon bearing through which the forend screw goes. how exactly does that constitute any kind of recoil absorbtion? looks and sounds like a gimick to me... does it acually work?"
Longbow wrote: "well that system is not much different from HD uses to damp the vibration out on their big twins.. maybe there is a little dampening *grin*"
joek wrote: "better photo's off a russian board (better that I could take!) think the Winchester 850 is a hatsan 70/75 with a nice stock. curious the guns sold in russia dont have the drop safety."
Tags
winchester 850x22 · hatsan 95 · hatsan sas · recoil dampening · spring piston · trigger design