This page preserves a discussion thread from the original AirgunOne.com community forum, active from 2008 until the site went offline. It's republished here for reference, in full, including the community banter. If you're a contributor to this thread and would like something removed or credited differently, contact info@airgunguide.com.
The Problem
kkoenning wrote: "I seem to be having some issues shooting my Ruger blackhawk with any consistency. I do not have this problem with my Crosman G1 Extreme, Remington Summit, Gamo Big Cat, or Gamo CFX. Occasionally I am able to shoot a nice tight group with the Ruger, but usually I get a grouping that is good left to right but is not good in the vertical direction."
"I have checked, loctited, and tightened the pivot bolt. I have made sure the stock bolts are loctited and tightened. I have tried two different scopes--the original and a Leapers 3-9 x 32AO, both mounted on Leapers accushot rings. I have tried resting the stock on my hand. I have tried resting the stock on a shooting bag. I have tried resting the stock on a rolled up towel. I have tried a loose hold. I have tried a tight hold. I have tried Crosman Premier hollow points, Beeman hollow points, Gamo hunters, Gamo match, Crosman pointed, JSB Diablo Exacts, RWS Supermags, and Beeman Kodiak extra heavy pellets. Everything seems to give me the same results."
"What is going on? I suppose it is something I am doing/not doing. But, I'm stumped. As I said, I do not have this problem with my other springers. Distance is 25 feet. TIA for any suggestions."
Community Discussion
njphil wrote: "I would have to say that Vertical stringing is a seal issue. I may be wrong and others will chime in.."
DaveShooter wrote: "Could be your just having a bad day. Heck we all get them where we shoot better on one day and like crap the next. Heck it really isn't bad grouping. Springers are tempremental I notice more and more that I play with mine. I also have familar tremours in my hands as well. Somedays I tear up the taget somedays I'd love to throw this rifle at the target."
"I just stop take a deep breath, and like you try and think through what is going on. Hope all this bull helped."
XXJonnyRebXX wrote: "KK, in an unrelated yet revealing comparison, an old boss of mine had a saying concerning the uncommon event regarding toilets (plumber) that just wouldn't flush right anymore. These were fixtures that had been completely rebuild, all lines snaked, all vents cleared, not a single reason in the world that they shouldn't work BETTER than new. Yet they wouldn't flush right... so you convince the homeowner that... sometimes toilets just go bad..."
"I've got a TF-58 that no matter what i've done, it shoots like yours. I've put many multiples of scope/mount combos and tried many pellets. Polished riflings, measuring chrony results, tightening everything. Weeks of time. In the end, it's just not as accurate as some of my other guns so i finally gave up. If you figure yours out, make sure and post what worked for you, so i can give it a try."
super6 wrote: "I'm also thinking seals. Check and shim the breech seal as that's easy and quick. More likely it's the piston seal which are iffy like so many Chicom guns. I'd recommend a RWS 34/350 piston seal or an Apex from Jim Maccari and, at minimum, a good lube tune. The Rugers tend to arrive with little or no lube in the powerplant just like the RWS/Dianas which it copies."
"I like the Rugers and routinely recommend them. If you aren't into tuning, get one of the guys here to take care of you. Besides correcting the accuracy problem, you'll have a much smoother and more pleasant gun to shoot. If you had a chrony I'll bet your velocity numbers are all over the lot thus your vertical groups. Good luck."
moe1942 wrote: "If those were my targets I'd be happy as hell..."
Speedturtle wrote (quoting kkoenning's original post): "Hello kkoenning, even I am puzzled by your situation with your Ruger. I just noticed something and perhaps you can do some test if you want. Before that I definitely agree with what Super6 said about the vertical deviations on your P.O.I.'s, it can really be affected by a broken piston or breech seal causing you to lose pressure on the compression chamber. Instead of letting all those compressed air push the pellet forward to the bore of the barrel some of the air are able to escape rearward if we are talking in relation to the piston seal or some of it are redirected outward if we are talking of the breech seal. Fluctuations in muzzle velocity due to air pressure losses corresponds to vertical P.O.I. deviations. A simple analogy would be a water hose. If you keep the angle of the hose and the water pressure it will hit the same spot on a wall. Keep the angle constant but decrease the water pressure and the spot on the wall where the water hits goes down. Increase the water pressure and the spot goes up."
"Opening up your Ruger is a long work but before you do that I would like you to check your scope base. I did not notice on your report that you changed your scope mount, only the scope was changed. Could it be that the base is sllipping or even allowing the scope tube to slide a little bit during firing? Some airgunners I know who wants to isolate problems with scope shift sometimes reverses their scope base mount just to find out if there is an effect or not. Another scope base would be a good choice to study this possibility. If this is not the case then I guess opening up your Ruger for internal parts inspection would tell you more about your problem."
"Hope you can keep us posted so we could also learn from you should in case you were able to find the answer to your puzzling Ruger."
kkoenning wrote: "super6: I just chronied the Ruger using Gamo Match 7.71gr pellets. A high of 952.7, a low of 929.6, extreme spread of 23.1 and standard deviation of 7.34. That seems pretty consistent. I think that should rule out a seal issue?"
"Speedturtle: Yes, I have changed the scope mount. I first used the included mount and then installed the Leapers accushot rings."
Speedturtle wrote (quoting kkoenning's post above): "Very interesting, I remembered my G-1 before barrel shortening. It didn't like the Gamo Match pellets or any wadcutters (1" grouping at 6 yards) but after barrel cutting the Gamo Match can have a 3/8" grouping at 6 yards! In your case... was it the barrel maybe? Just an idea kk."
Bentong wrote: "Have you checked the crown. Q-tip test and if it get caught on burr than you just need to re-crown. If it passes clean the bore with goo gone. On mine I just saturate it then let it dry and then pass several patches until it comes out clean, when in doubt do it again. When your ready to shoot, let it settle then fire away, making sure you duplicate how you shoot her or it will be different POI."
njphil wrote: "I still would put my money on a piston or breach seal... How many shots over the chrony, I would do 20-40 accross then you get a good picture of what is going on.."
Scotty wrote: "I agree with moe1942. I'm easy to please. Just looking for squirrel accurate shooters."
Robin A wrote (quoting moe1942): "Ain't that the truth..........................Robin"
super6 wrote: "I think your standard deviation is high along with your extreme spread. That's not good accuracy at that distance. Do the crown test as suggested and correct with a little cone of 600 grit sandpaper, if needed. Both my Rugers had breach seals almost totally flush with the breach block. If yours is like that, shim the seal. If all that doesn't change anything, then a tear down the gun, de-burr it, hone the cylinder, replace the Chicom seal with an RWS 34/350 piston seal (very high quality and less likely to need resizing like some of Maccari's seals), properly lube it, reassmble, and be happy."
"I tune my guns right out of the box, sometimes unfired. I guess a well-positioned burr on the crown could cause a vertical shot spread but I still think you're not pushing the same amount of air behind each pellet fired. The Rugers are possibly the most problem free Chicom guns made right out of the box but they are usually dry just like the 34's and 350's. If shimming the breech seal doesn't work then where else would it leak air? Put your piston seal next to the RWS 34 seal and it will speak for itself. One is a piece of crap and the other is a finely machined work of art in comparison."
"I doubt you have a bad gun. I think you either have a bad part (piston seal) and/or a part (breach seal) that needs an adjustment, i.e. shim. A bad gun would be an out-of-round receiver/compression tube which would cost more than the gun to correct by someone who has a Sunnon to correct it, like Paul Watts. But the higher quality more flexible RWS seal would likely compensate for that as opposed to the rock hard Chicom seal. One last possibility is to try some more different pellet types as different guns sometimes are very particular when it comes to pellets."
Robin A wrote: "Sounds like good advice from S 6, and a not too expensive solution..................Robin"
VulcanTrigger wrote: "kkoenning and anyone else, if you do take apart your Blackhawk to replace the piston seal, could you take some photos and advise on disassembly/tuning/reassembly to help us other Blackhawk owners out? All I've done to mine so far is tighten the screws and wiped the superficial rust of the metal. I don't think I've even put 200 shots through it yet, so I can't provide any helpful information on groupings."
"Also, can anyone tell me where can I order RWS breach and piston seals (and springs) for the Ruger? Thanks, -VulcanTrigger"
VulcanTrigger wrote: "OK, I spent some quality time with the Ruger this morning and I have a theory for you to ponder. I put about 150 pellets downrange and noticed all kinds of erratic pellet placement. It was a little better with a firm hold and the Superdomes, but good groups were rare and often ruined by a flyer."
"Besides only liking RWS Superdomes (it hated Premiers and Gamo Hunters), my gun has a pretty solid kick and twist from that powerful spring. After a while, I looked at the scope rings that I had been making sure were tight, and I noticed that the back ring was actually tilted backwards slightly, possibly from the percussive whacks of the recoil. This could explain your vertical stringing."
"I'm going to order a one piece mount and hope that improves my groupings. Good luck and please let me know what happens. -VulcanTrigger"
kkoenning wrote (quoting VulcanTrigger's post above): "Using RWS Supermags, had a couple good looking groups yesterday after trying a new hold location and making sure I repeated the location. Tried it again today and have the same problem again using the new hold location and pellets. Wondering if I am going to be able to figure this one out."
"I am not using the supplied rings. I am using Leapers Accushot rings. I have been keeping a close watch on the mounting and I have not seen any movement."
super6 wrote: "Vulcan, one of the more experienced guys here wrote up the Blackhawk and his tune with some pictures. Do a search. The Ruger is essentially a copy of the 34 but uses a sleeve over the spring end which fits into the piston just like the RWS 350 which is basically a stroked or stretched 34. The sleeve acts as both a spring guide and provides a smooth surface for the cocking lever shoe to slide over. Some aftermarket 34 springs don't fit in the sleeve but you don't need it, just smooth and polish the cocking shoe."
"Always use a decent one-piece scope mount on a springer when possible. If I need rings, I prefer the Beemans (very solid and pricey) which are made by someone else (Beeman doesn't make anything) whose name I forget but are English and sold by www.airgunsofarizona.com. Call them if you don't see them on the site. Another approach is a dovetail to Weaver mount from Pyramyd and use Weaver style rings. If you use the dovetail mount clean the grooves and use red Loctite which can handle twice the torque of the blue."
"Other than the sleeve, all springs and seals for the 34 work in the Ruger and the trigger assembly is identical except the Ruger's trigger is metal while the RWS triggers are plastic. If you have an RWS gun with the T05 trigger design and want an metal trigger, just call Umarex and buy a Ruger trigger. It's a simple drop-in."
VulcanTrigger wrote: "super6, thanks for all that great information! -VulcanTrigger"
kkoenning wrote: "Have been shooting the Ruger a bunch and yesterday I noticed that the groups were tighter. Did some more shooting today and the groups are looking pretty good. Guess it just needed more shots through it? Groups are starting to be tighter more often. I wonder, is it the gun "breaking in" or is it me getting used to how to shoot it properly?"
"One thing I did learn, the Ruger DOES NOT LIKE JSB Diabolo Exact (8.4 gr) pellets! It seems to like heavier pellets such as: RWS Supermag (9.3 gr) and Beeman Kodiak Extra Heavy (10.6 gr) pellets. I will try some of the lighter pellets and see if I can find some that will group well."
Speedturtle wrote (quoting kkoenning's post above): "I'd say it's both KKoenning. You are conditioning all the parts inside the airgun even the barrel and at the same you are familiarizing yourself to the way she wants to be hold. Perhaps you have a stronger piston spring for your Ruger for it to like heavier pellets."
"Good insight KK. Hope to see some more posts from your side. Show us some pics of your groupings next time."
kkoenning wrote: "Here are some photos from today's targets. Each target is 10 shots from 25-feet. The pellet used is written on the target. The third target is the JSB Diabolo Exact, does not seem to like those."
Speedturtle wrote: "Very good shots! Give or take 500 pellets more and all would be inside the bulls! That Ruger has a lot of potential in it especially the shooter!"
VulcanTrigger wrote: "Here's some groups I shot this evening with my Blackhawk using RWS Meisterkuglen at about 20 yards. And no, the first one was not me sighting in the scope, just bad shooting. The middle group in the last row has six shots 'cause I can't count very well. -VT"
super6 wrote: "I think both of you have good guns that are breaking in slowly. At a minimum I recommend an RWS 34 piston seal and a proper lube tune and shim the breach seal. That's it. These guns like the 34 are a piece of cake to take down and work on. Also, snug down all the screws with blue loctite."
"With RWS/Diana sourcing parts including barrels from China and assembling guns in Rumania and stamping Made In Germany on them, there is no reason to apologize for the Ruger. I often say it's a copy of the 34 but it really is a downsized copy of the 350 with the in piston sleeve and articulated cocking arm."
kkoenning wrote: "Just when the groups were looking pretty good consistently, they have opened up into a pattern again. Instead of tight 3/8-in groups, I am again seeing 3/4 to 1-in patterns. I am using the same pellets that were consistent (RWS Supermag 9.3gr); the scope has not moved according to the marks I put on the scope and the receiver; I believe I am shooting (holding) the gun the same. I am shooting in the same location at 25-feet from the target in my basement."
"It occurred to me that maybe the bore needed cleaning, so I ran a couple of dry patches through it. First one came out slightly soiled, not very much. Then I ran another dry one through it. Did not help."
"Next I decided to chrony it. For a string of 10 shots, I got a high of 880fps, a low of 873fps, extreme spread of 7fps, average velocity of 876fps, and a standard deviation of 1.7fps. Seems like that should produce consistent shooting. There are probably 1000 to 1200 shots through the rifle."
"The rifle has been lube tuned and the breech seal has been shimmed. I am at a loss for what to do next. This has been going on for about 10 weeks and I am ready to resign myself to the fact that the rifle is not going to shoot as consistently tight groups as my G1, Summit, CFX, Big Cat, or B26."
Fnash wrote: "Yes I would be happy too! You should see the off day I had with my Air Hawk yesterday. Air Guns will drive you nuts.... Frank"
Speedturtle wrote (quoting kkoenning's post above): "Hey kkoenning, you have a lot of airguns with u, is there a chance you might be able to swap another scope that you trust that much for your Black Hawk?"
"I had the same issue a while back. All the shots were tight, inside 1/4" hole at 5 yards, inside 3/8" hole at 10 yards, then after about 3 weeks of shooting... nothing. Can't even put 5 shots inside 1/2" at 5 yards!"
"I checked everything same as you did. There was no play on scope movement from scope tube to mount, from mount to compression tube. Cleaned the bore, maintained good stock screw tension and hold, still the same issue."
"Since I have another scope I decided to swap around, it did made a difference but not that much but it did made an improvement. Since I got 2 scopes I decided to send back the Leapers for evaluation. (BTW Leapers, USA is a very reliable company. They even called me up at the house to further know the details of my complaint.) After 3 days I saw a box in front of the house via UPS and I received a brand new Leapers scope. I thought it would take some time for them to investigate what's wrong with my scope but they just decided to send me a totally brand new one."
"Later after a day or two they emailed me back. They said that they were done checking my old scope and the objective lens "moved" inside the tube. Due to the recoil it was not able to stay in one place during firing causing inconsistencies on the shots. They even thanked me for giving them my comments about the product."
"I'm not saying that it's the same on your case but what i'm saying is that relying only on the markings that we put on the scope tube to find out if it did moved due to the recoil is still unreliable. I only came to know this when they emailed me back explaining the problem with my old scope. Hope this helps. Good luck!"
kkoenning wrote: "Speedturtle: since all of the guns mentioned are shooting really good tight groups, I really "hate" to remove a scope and put it on another rifle. I do have a Gamo 4 x 32 that came with the CFX which has never been mounted that I could put on the Ruger. Since that scope does not have an adjustable objective, I'm not sure how much good it would do to try it."
super6 wrote: "kk: the Gamo scope probably has a parallax set at 30 or 35 yds. Us old farts did fine for decades with rimfire scopes set at 50yds. and centerfire scopes set at 100yds. and shot at every conceivable distance. Here's what I'd do at this point since your post tune numbers are great: 1) try the other scope 2) scrub the bore with J&B bore cleaner and a brass or graphite rod and a nylon brush and then clean up the mess with GooGone and umpteen patches 3) tune the trigger (contact me or Chris for more details) 4) make sure you seat every pellet the same and if the skirts are snug on some and loose on others, maybe consider sizing them 5) and LASTLY, if nothing works, order a new barrel from Umarex."
"This is the first persistent accuracy problem I've heard of with a Ruger. They're like 34's, they just seem to always work fine."
Tags
ruger blackhawk · diana 34 · vertical stringing · piston seal · breech seal · scope mount · accuracy troubleshooting