21 posts · January 24, 2022 to February 11, 2022 · Archived from the original AirgunWarriors.com forum
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Pre-order only at this point, but it has a very intriguing scissor pump linkage claimed to greatly reduce pumping effort. I really love my current Dragonfly, but this new thing has become a brainworm.
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/seneca-dragonfly-mk2-multi-pump-air-rifle?m=5170
Wonder if it will still feature the DaffyDflyDoughnut?
It looks like it will be May before anyone can see one. The fact that it still has a wood stock is fantastic. I wonder how much plastic will be on it in the end?
It looks like it will be May before anyone can see one. The fact that it still has a wood stock is fantastic. I wonder how much plastic will be on it in the end?
I doubt very much plastic. Maybe the front and rear sights. The Snowpeak guns are remarkably modular, so I would assume they will re-use the same breachblock and bolt, as well as the very well-proven trigger.
But I see your point. Given the simplicity of these guns, a high-quality polymer breachblock could easily replace the nice machined aluminum one. Much like the difference between early and late IZH 60/61. They all pretty much work the same, but us aficionados prefer real metal, for (mostly) sentimental reasons.
Fact is, polymers are actually IDEAL for air guns. There is generally much less stress than a powder-burner, and the weight-savings can be significant, as can the manufacturing costs, which means we pay less.
I'm not a FAN of plastics, but I'm not an opponent in a new design.
But having said all that, I want a wood stock on any gun I buy as ANYTHING other than a toy for the kids!
Jim I agree with you "mostly." There is definitely the nostalgia/sentimentality factor. If I may put words in your mouth that I think you meant when you used the term "mostly," there is the perceived quality inherent in guns made with traditional materials. Airguns sometimes get lumped in with the toys by some. Plastic airguns especially so. Wood and metal guns help to dispel this myth.
We use the term plastic as a noun, as in things are made out of plastic. The term plastic started out as an adjective used to describe how something behaved under stress. Apply enough force to something and it will deform (bend, squish, stretch.) When you remove that force, if it goes all the way back to it's original size and shape, that's elastic deformation. If it stays in it's new shape or only goes part way back to its original shape, that's plastic deformation. So plastic things deform under force and stay at least partly out of shape even after that force is removed. See how this could be bad in a gun part?
The front sight on that Dragonfly Mk2 is the same part that serves to connect the barrel with the pump tube, right at the pivot point of the pump lever. Forces can be pretty high on the pump pivot point on a multi-stroke pneumatic airgun, particularly on one that can be pumped up to fifteen times. Let's just say, I really hope that part is metal, and not a cheap "pot-metal" casting either.
Frankly, as an MSP, the Dragonfly Mk2 "fixes" everything that I felt was wrong with the MSP's of old, namely the Sheridans and Benjamins. They were difficult to scope as they had no grooves or mounting points. Pumping got tiresome in long sight-in or plinking sessions. They were loud at full power, especially the Sheridan.
I'm going to be watching this one. If they do it right, it will tick all my boxes. At $200, if it's solid, I may not be able to resist.
Thanks for that. I do recall, as a Geology major back in the stone age, the difference between elastic and plastic deformation. That's why I tried to use the term high quality polymer, instead of plastic. Hell, there are several firearm mfgrs that make their guns almost exclusively of polymers, with the exception of barrels, firing pins, and some trigger parts. The field of polymer material science has advanced remarkably in the last couple decades. What I meant to say is modern polymers, IE "plastics," have come a long way.
While I prefer a traditional spring air rifle, (steel, hide, and timber,) I'm open to new sh!t, and not opposed to 21st century materials.
Like I said, this new Dragonfly has become a brainworm. If and when they become available, I just might bite.
The term plastic started out as an adjective used to describe how something behaved under stress.
In point of fact, the term "plastic" meaning moldable, as applied to polymers, was originally meant to connote how they can be formed (i.e., molded) into a complex shape during manufacture...
...rather than how they behave during service or under stress. Actually most plastics behave more elastically under stress than do many traditional materials like, for example, mild steel.
Tom Gaylord has a gushing blog post on it, along with a bit of history. I know where some of my tax return is going!
[edit] Based on Tom's blog, I have pre-ordered. May is a long way away, but this one looks like its worth waiting for.
There will be a highly modified and tuned Dragonfly Mk 1 on my table at Findlay this spring, at a bargain price.
I'm wondering if the piston travel will go all the way to the front plug and all the way to the valve face, with the new linkage?
I'm wondering if the piston travel will go all the way to the front plug and all the way to the valve face, with the new linkage?
Good question, James. If it doesn't, that would go a long way toward explaining why Gaylord's plot shows pumping effort not increasing with the number of strokes -- because pressure doesn't either?
Steve and James,
Since the per-stroke velocity delta begins to decrease at higher stroke count, I'm assuming the pump is headspace-limited, and continued pumping would eventually plateau. Alas, all idle speculation until May.
Steve and James,
Since the per-stroke velocity delta begins to decrease at higher stroke count, I'm assuming the pump is headspace-limited, and continued pumping would eventually plateau. Alas, all idle speculation until May.
Is there a review available that reports MV vs #strokes?
There's an Air Venture video showing the linkage movement, the piston stroke looks short ?
@steve-in-nc
Only one, in Tom's review part 2, and it's just one shot string, with a brand new gun. More testing is needed, but so far he's the only guy with one, and he tests and shoots LOTS of different guns on a daily basis. Like I said, it's all pretty much armchair quarterbacking until these things hit the market.
Steve and James,
Since the per-stroke velocity delta begins to decrease at higher stroke count, I'm assuming the pump is headspace-limited, and continued pumping would eventually plateau. Alas, all idle speculation until May.
Yeah. In fact it hits a wall at stroke #10. I'm thinking rubber donut.
Pumps…….Velocity
3 428
4 476
5 518
6 553
7 564
8 583
9 589
10 602
11 601
12 617
13 605
14 617
15 618
@steve-in-nc
Steve, I respectfully disagree. The rubber donut was actually a pretty clever solution to prevent users from overpumping a traditional MSP. Silly, but effective, and probably saved them a ton in warranty claims, (how can you prove the customer overpumped? Better to design in a prevention. That donut was there for the sole purpose of making pumping harder as pressures increased, ultimately making it impossible to overpump.) I replaced my donut with a non-compressible filler and saw immediate improvement in pumping efficiency. But I seldom take it over 5-6 pumps, and most importantly, I'm not a 14 year-old. When I was, I would have pumped the sh!t out of the thing.
I still think the new gun is designed with pump headspace, which again is a pretty elegant design solution to prevent folks from overstressing the mechanism. A donut would increase pumping effort, which we don't see.
Fun to talk about, think about, but its all idle speculation until they get in the hands of us shooters. Have you placed an order yet? Money where your mouth is...
For anyone still following, Part 3 of the blog is up:
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2022/02/seneca-dragonfly-mark-2-multi-pump-rifle-part-three/
@steve-in-nc
Have you placed an order yet? Money where your mouth is...
Well, Jim, I think your rubber donut ditching may have been somewhat related to my comments about how it increased headspace and corrupted pumping efficiency.
https://airgunwarriors.com/community/airgun-talk/that-daffy-dfly-piston/#post-9353
At least my comments were posted several days before you mentioned your clever nylon spacer mod' in the same thread.
Meanwhile, the fact that clues suggesting excessive pump-protecting headspace losses are even more plentiful in the Mk2 than they were in the Mk1, may say something about a need to baby a less than robust pump linkage.
In any event, thanks, but I think I'll sit this one out.
@steve-in-nc HI Steve, The pump linkage looks like a copy of the linkage that a fellow designed for the 392, that had a recommended pump limit of six pumps. I think Tom Gaylord did a write up on that gun too. Parts of the linkage did look delicate.
I Googled Crosman 392 with modified pump linkage, and there's pics of the linkage.
I Googled Crosman 392 with modified pump linkage, and there's pics of the linkage.
Well, James, considering that this linkage has to cram twice as many links (i.e. 4 instead of 2) into the same size tube, it wouldn't be too surprising if the end result is, as you so delicately put it, delicate.
That might force the factory, in the interest of limiting failures and warranty returns, to fudge a bit on volumetric efficiency and thus limit peak pressure and stress on a fragile pump. The obvious hit to power would be inevitable.
Seneca · Dragonfly Mk2 · MPP · Pumper