Is 12 ftlbs truly magic for spring guns?

I only ask this because it has seemed to be my experience.  This post was generated by my recent shooting session with an early model Gamo 440.  I "tuned" it by taking out the rear spring spacer, and replacing the factory spring with a JM Merlin.  Nothing else besides de-burr and lube.  Oh, I did replace the trigger with a GTX, but this isn't about the trigger.

I know Gamo springers have a really bad rep, but this gun is just an absolute joy to shoot.  Very consistent 800 fps with 8.4g JSB domes.  The very long cocking arc of the Gamo 440 makes for easy all-day shooting, and the shot cycle is calm and vibration-free.

At this power level, it just feels FUN to shoot all day.  Easy to put them where I want them, without the need for OCD hold issues.

I've done the same thing to several springers over the years with excellent results. The first was in the middle 80's to an RWS 36 that had the original spring replaced with a model 27 spring. Nice combination for .177 but wouldn't recommend for .22. 

IMHO, yes.  All of my springers are setup at 12fpe.  That power level optimizes accuracy and shot cycle.  Plenty of power for hunting inside of 40 yards too.

R

I reduced a TX200III, anda D48 to 12 fp, Guns are a real pleasure to shoot.

Tom

From my experience no. I own several JM tuned 12 FPE guns and I have tuned several myself to upwards of 18 FPE. I think that the main difference is the power plant you are working with. I have tuned my R10 .20 to 16 FPE and it is as smooth as my JM tuned TX200 at 12 FPE, my R1 .22 at 18 FPE is even nicer. I have tuned a HW97 to 15 FPE and it was a beast, slowed down to 12-13 FPE and it was a pleasure. To me the most disappointing gun to tune for power was the FWB 124. Several conversations with Jim convinced me that around 12 FPE was the best for that power plant.

 Wow! When did Jim leave the sub 700 club? 

Posted by: jtiver01

 Wow! When did Jim leave the sub 700 club? 

I guess it was 15 years or so back when I tuned my second R1.

 Meant that for Jim in PGH.  He authored some rather convincing and eloquent postings over the years touting the bliss of sub 700 fps - spring guns.  Fear not: my remaining low power brethren! But, let this be a warning and reminder that no "sub 700" man is immune to the recurring, seductive and pernicious MAGNUMITIS!

For a narrow range band...Absolutely! Much more fun in a controlled range. No fun at all beyond medium range. Pellet drop is just too much.

Bo

Posted by: jtiver01

 Meant that for Jim in PGH.  He authored some rather convincing and eloquent postings over the years touting the bliss of sub 700 fps - spring guns.  Fear not: my remaining low power brethren! But, let this be a warning and reminder that no "sub 700" man is immune to the recurring, seductive and pernicious MAGNUMITIS!

Fear not!  Sub-700 is STILL where it's at!  But truth be told, I do have and enjoy some guns in the 800-880 range, all .177.  900 is my extreme speed limit, and only my Diana 34N comes close.

I always wanted to get my hands on one of those early Gamo 1250s, and tune it down to around 750 or so.  I thought that a big powerplant very understressed might make for an interesting shooter.

But yeah, I backed my way down from Magnumitis, having owned and R1AW .20 and a beast of a B21 in.177.  The former was a wonderful gun, the latter was a challenge, to say the least.  🙂

(Still looking for that pristine Slavia 620 or Lucznik 87!)

I don't think there is anything magic about 12fpe. I think it depends on the gun and the tune.  I've got a  David Slade tuned HW97 in .177 that makes 11.5fpe and an amazing Jan Kraner tuned HW97 .22 that puts out almost 17 fpe, and there is very little difference in the shot cycle between the two.  An R1 can be tuned to shoot smoothly at 16-18 fpe without too much trouble, but I don't think the HW95 should be tuned above 15 fpe. People do it all the time, but it's not for me. Totally agree the FWB124 is best between 10-12 fpe.  

I think just about everyone will agree that a low-powered springer is the most pleasant to shoot, but something like an HW30 is not always appropriate for the task at hand. I think 12 fpe does represent a pretty nice, middle of the road power level, where you can plink happily, or do some hunting, or whatever. If you're going to have just one springer, I'd say that's a good all-around choice. But if you have more than one, there is nothing wrong with having some magnums in there, but I think they are much nicer if they aren't overstressed or pushed into being the "next model up."

My two cents.

I believe 12ft. lbs. was the legal limit of airguns in the UK without an FAC license.  IMO, 18-20 ft. lbs is the magic number for most people when accuracy and killing ability come to mind.

Posted by: JiminPGH

I only ask this because it has seemed to be my experience...

...I know Gamo springers have a really bad rep, but this gun is just an absolute joy to shoot.  Very consistent 800 fps with 8.4g JSB domes.  The very long cocking arc of the Gamo 440 makes for easy all-day shooting, and the shot cycle is calm and vibration-free.

At this power level, it just feels FUN to shoot all day.  Easy to put them where I want them, without the need for OCD hold issues.

Let me get this out of the way: I tuned a couple of the "1000 fps" Gamos and I liked them--one shot well even at around 14 FPE IIRC.    

Now, your original question: "Is 12 ft. lbs. (FPE) truly magic for spring guns?" 

My answer is, "No, it is not.  It definitely is not".

In reading about this subject, and tuning springers for a lot of years, I've concluded that the basis for the aura surrounding the 12 FPE number seems to have arisen because of what air gun owners in the UK and other Euro-countries have been forced to do in order to enjoy the sport. 

In some of those places, 12 FPE is the upper limit of power for their non-FAC air guns.  If they exceed it, at least in the UK, I've read that they get their air guns confiscated and may even have to serve jail time, too.  So, I've come to believe that if that non-FAC limit had been 14 FPE, instead, we'd all be reading of the success of tuning and shooting to THAT power level.  In other words, "Necessity is the mother of invention", so they invented.  Some of us followed.

Could it really be true that a 12.0 FPE springer is just great, while a 12.5 FPE springer is just awful?  Or is that threshold maybe 13.25 FPE?  That doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not trying to give you or anyone else a hard time for asking the question or being of that opinion.  Decreasing the given or 'normal' power output  of a springer a little can indeed result in greater success while using a more-forgiving shooting technique (hold, follow-through, etc).  I'm in agreement with Beeman22 regarding the fact that the rifle/power plant in question has to be considered. 

With some spring rifles, you'd really have to 'strangle' them to slow them down to 12 FPE, and the results in that case would be worse, not better.  That is, an overly-slow shot cycle can penalize you because it can be very-hard to hold an air gun on-target in-between the time you pull the trigger and when the pellet exits the barrel, whether the air rifle is calm in your hands, or not.

There are certain springers that will shoot smoother and more accurately closers to 12 than to 16. Not saying 12 is a magic number, but most spring guns are better below 15 ft.lbs 

My HW95s, R9 .22 and both the HW77K and 97K shoot much smoother, quieter and easier than they did at factory power levels.  

I belive 12fpe IS the magic number for those particular rifles.  I know that I enjoy them more and get better results because of it.  I am sold.

Lots of interesting responses. 

I think it might be a chicken-egg question.  With 12 ftlbs as the UK limit, and the UK being a relatively sizeable airgun market due to powderburner restrictions, it makes sense that a lot of airguns have been specifically engineered to be at peak performance at this power level. 

Having no power restrictions in the US market, it also makes sense that manufacturers would try to push the limits of some proven UK-limit designs to sell them in an FPS-driven market like the US.  Hence, we in the US get guns that were designed for a 12 ftlb limit, but over-sprung to achieve US-marketable MVs. 

And I do understand that some powerplant designs were ACTUALLY engineered for higher power, and do perform better at higher power levels.  Rumor has it that the R1 was specified by hisownself "Dr." Beeman as a high-powered spring rifle just for the American market.

So, yeah, there are spring rifles that shine brightly above the 12 ftlb glass ceiling.  But there are also a lot of them that shine brightest in the power range where they were designed to do best.

IMO, it's  more a question of power to weight ratio, and what output the gun was designed for. a 1.5 to 1 (12 ft/lbs in an eight pound gun) or even 1 to 1 (eight ft/lbs in an eight pound gun) will be typically very forgiving. 3 to 1 will be nasty(eighteen ft/lbs in a six pound gun like a few Gamos)

One of the most unforgiving springers  I ever owned was a Brit  custom, Air Arms sidelever tuned to all of thirteen ft lbs. That extra one and a half ft/lbs over what the gun was designed for made it almost unshootable, the most frustrating gun I've ever owned(of hundreds)

Someone mention the B21...I had it's predecessor a SM1000.Much work turned it into one of the sweetest springers I've owned in the magnum power range...standing offhand 5 shot groups at 10 meters in one .22 caliber hole (.177 cpl at 970 fps) weren't uncommon. By that time it had $100 of JM parts and 40 hours of work, but still...

Hey Classical gas, was that Air Arms beast you spoke of a Khamsin by chance? If it was I had one also. Bought it from a shop in NY state. Short sidelever, short barrel, short thumbhole stock, 22 cal., kicked like a mule, loud as all get out, and you couldn't hit anything with it past 25 yards.

Love to have that gun backnow. Lol 

Posted by: classicalgas

Someone mention the B21...I had it's predecessor a SM1000.Much work turned it into one of the sweetest springers I've owned in the magnum power range...standing offhand 5 shot groups at 10 meters in one .22 caliber hole (.177 cpl at 970 fps) weren't uncommon. By that time it had $100 of JM parts and 40 hours of work, but still...

I bought my B21 from James Kitching at Fun Supply.  I was absolutely stymied trying to remove that huge lump of a muzzle weight, and wound up cutting the barrel.  Mine had a solid, very thick barrel, not a sleeve, probably 18-19mm.  I too sent many dollars to JM in pursuit of tuning that gun; Diana 48 soft kit, new piston seal, new breach seal, spacers, etc., etc.  It wound up a very nice gun, but it was a labor of love, and a long road.

One thing I remember from the original purchase was that James insisted the only scope that would hold up on that gun was the 4X32AO he was selling at the time.  That was one of the clearest, sharpest, brightest 4x32s I've ever owned.  I remember a shoot with the guys in a long dark semi-abandoned horse barn, where all the targets  were set against the bright daylight of the open end of the barn.  We all switched guns, as we used to do in those days, and EVERYBODY remarked about how awesome that scope was in those conditions.

Maybe someone stated it and I missed it and if so, I apologize:

Every model is different.  The balance, the overall weight.  Where the piston stroke is in all that mechanical relationship.  Heck, the length of the stroke will matter.   And then you add personal preference?  What's an airgunner to think much less do with all that information?

Throughout the years people with skill I can hardly comprehend opened these machines and made them perform better than they did from the factory.  They tuned them to higher power.  They tuned them to lower power.  They massaged them to function as close to flawlessly as they could at power levels which these machines were not initially designed to operate.   And the rest of us sorted pellets.

I have a penchant for good open sights.  Love em.  I also appreciate springers as they often come with pretty decent open sights.  Workable.  Usable.  And the balance of a sweet tuned springer with good natural sights on it is its own joy.    Even a low power scope is good when its weight isn't reminiscent of eastern block... anything.

It's an act.  Walenda style.  You need to get from here to there but you have to pay attention to all the little details almost instinctively or you're headed for the long dive.  And the tuners, the parts gurus and a lot of broad shoulders before of you have built a substantial net below your line of sight.  They can provide it.  You just need to know why you're asking for what you're asking for.   

A hundred relevant questions.  Like the ingredients that make up your favorite pie.

Posted by: Harvey

  You just need to know why you're asking for what you're asking for.   

A hundred relevant questions.  Like the ingredients that make up your favorite pie.

Holy sh!t Harvey!  😉

As others have posted, it all depends on many variables. I find that on the Diana 34 series guns, l have had the best luck with smoothness in the 10-11 fpe range. My HWs often shine there also, as well as my fwb124. 

I put up with a bit less than an ideal shot cycle to get the fps on a few guns but consider it a real treat to get smooth and shootable at over 12fpe. My R1 in 22 at 18fpe was a pleasant reward, but took many tries to arrive at. 

Doug, I think it was a Khamsin, that name rings a bell.Stubby, gorgeous, and a real pisser to shoot. It didn't help that it was .20 caliber, and quite a bit tougher to find pellets for, even though Beeman had several in those days. I tried them all.

Jim...mine had the solid barrel too, and I chopped it to 14". I think it had a GSA spring and Tesla seal in it,  a teflon sleeved steel guide and top hat when I was done. Also one of the guns I tried a threaded transfer port in. I had three at the time, and I'd try to duplicate any promising tweak across all three guns and see if the average improvement was similar. One of the first guns I tried the wood hardening trick on, too, and taper lapping the bore.