[Closed]Full auto, 500 fpe, large caliber...are we blind?

In the airgun hobby, we have been blessed to stay under the BATF radar…why?:  low power, small caliber, compressed air propellant, and very limited range.

However, some current pcp airguns are now so identical in power, caliber, fully and semi-automatic function, as to be indistinguishable from firearms!

Consider…a lunatic obtains a large carbon fiber 4500 psi tank, links the fill hose to a fully automatic, large caliber, silenced airgun….he has potential to fire unnoticed, into a large gathering of people, inflict death and injury to an unsuspecting crowd at ranges greater than 100 meters!  Consider the "Bumpfire" incident and immediate legislation that followed.

We are one lunatic away from disaster in our sport!

Forum members…don't buy these weapons…they serve NO practical purpose in our sporting activities!!!

Forum owners…stop discussion, sale, evaluation, and posts, regarding full and semi-automatic, large caliber, ultra-high power airguns.  Let them build their own forum, away from us!

Retailers...DON'T SELL THEM!!!  You are killing profits, and endangering the future of the community of airgun enthusiasts…your customers!

Manufacturers…your business is multi-national, and some countries laugh at our firearm restrictions, but in the U.S. we have to continually fight to protect our sport.  Quit exporting large caliber, fully automatic airguns to the U.S.  

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Last thought:  Legislators will quickly, and soon, understand what propels a deadly projectile is not a consideration.  It is the ability of the weapon that poses the real danger.  It would be SO easy to write legislation to change the existing term "firearm" to "weapon"…then pcp airguns are in the same boat as the firearms owners!!!  

Amen,brother...

I don't think for a second that unstable people are that creative

you are going to buy 4000.00 worth of gear when a fraction of that would do

maybe a very rich nut but the people that are pushing states to be able to hunt with those high powered air guns are do as much to draw attention to the capabilities of said air guns as anyone

we can't control what is be offered or bought, nor can we stop what people do and so what can done, not very much

This has been a concern for a while now.  Sooner or later something will happen to bring over reaction and unwanted scrutiny to our sport.  If this is true, then what's to do?   Limit to .177 !   ?    What arbitrary limits need be applied?   I do agree that very powerful semi auto / auto and quiet airguns could put us in a spot, but where do we draw the line and how?  Slugs further close the gap.

Me I like my .22 and am interested in slugs, but this is a concern in this era of knee jerk reactions.  In Hang gliding, we self regulate and the FAA has agreed to "stay out" of our business.   This has worked for many years.  Not sure how we'd go about this in AG as we have no national club or organization.  What limits could we possibly agree on?

Regards,

John

Agree, they are pellet guns, lets keep them that way.  The industry needs to use some self discipline. 

I just want to start a discussion.  How else will retailers put reason and negative after-effects, over immediate profit potential?

If my remarks offended anyone, I apologize.  That's not my intention.  

Posted by: marflow

I don't think for a second that unstable people are that creative

you are going to buy 4000.00 worth of gear when a fraction of that would do

maybe a very rich nut but the people that are pushing states to be able to hunt with those high powered air guns are do as much to draw attention to the capabilities of said air guns as anyone

we can't control what is be offered or bought, nor can we stop what people do and so what can done, not very much

We can control what is being offered by not buying. If no one buys it, they'll stop making them before we end up with nothing but regulations on our hobby. That goes the same for slugs. want to shoot bullets, buy a firearm.

Hepotter is 100% correct in every statement, and every suggestion.

We are treading on very precarious ground with all this very high power, and now full auto.

If we stop buying this stuff, it will cease to be for sale.

Time to wake up!!!!!!

The hang gliding and scuba sports have been allowed to self regulate *because they offer few threats to to anyone but the participant* Airguns (at least the more potent ones) offer threat to the public at large. This is most similar to microlight aircraft (as compared to airplanes you can't pick up) Microlights are under loose government control, compared to other single seat private aircraft (and their pilots)

Tighter government control on airguns is inevitable (in the US, most other countries already have restrictions on airguns, if they control firearms) They only question is when, and how restrictive the rules become. Personally, I think energy levels well into the range produced by self defense pistols *should* be  separated from small bore low caliber airguns, and under similar restrictions to  firearms of similar power.

This would roughly equate to how electric bikes are treated. Under a certain weight and speed, they require no license or registration. In the 35-45mph range, and under 100 lbs, they are mopeds, and require a drivers license, but don't need to meet the safety standards(lighting, brakes, etc) of a motor vehicle. Above 45 and 100 lbs an electric bike becomes a motorcycle, and has to meet all the applicable standards.

Raising restrictions/requirements based on potential for damage/death is a sensible way to look at stuff like this...but that rarely happens.

Classicalgas......     "Airguns (at least the more potent ones) offer threat to the public at large. "

Agreed, exactly.... that's the whole issue.   Traditionally airguns have been, and have been viewed as quite non threatening, hence we bask in our current and joyful state of affairs for the most part.  But as they become more powerful then we change the equation and invite broad regulation where there was essentially none.  The question is, what is to be done?

RC airplanes have been caught up in the panic over drones, despite a decades long track record of responsibility.  Low powered air gunners are risking similar if not more restriction if things don't change, it's a matter of time.   But then just saying "don't buy powerful airguns" will never work as there are others for whom that is the whole point.   They may not share my views and we risk being lumped in with them when and if the time comes that they are noticed.   Again, not sure what is to be done except possibly a national club that could put in guidelines and then lobby for our interests but that's a mess in itself.   I think it would be wise of us to somehow implement a delineation and attempt to set it as a widely recognized standard.   Thus when the time comes we can say "that's not us" !   

Then the question is, who gets to say what it'll be?    I'll start just for fun and completely arbitrarily...      < 25 ft lbs at 100 yards (addresses the round as well as the gun),  no fully automatic guns,  also just to be safe....no 88 magnums or squirt guns filled with pee.

Seriously.... ????

The discussion around "government regulation of airguns" is like Haley's Comet. It's nothing but a bright light in the sky that we all look up and think it's going to rain down on us but it just keeps circling back around.

Hey, Hoot, I'm so thankful you are in good health and good spirits. I thought maybe those government fellas had finally caught up with you. Toad Suck just wouldn't be the same.  ABTW, if any of you are unfortunate enough to find yourself in Toad Suck, check up on ol' Hoot, and you gotta stop in at Bucks's Burgers and get you one of those Buck's Burgers. Hold the cheese though. It ruins the flavor. Great food there. And, I take it on good accord there have been a sighting or two of him there on occasion. 

But I digress...... 

This very same thread of discussion has popped up on all of the forums over the past 10 + years. First it was PCP's putting out all this power. Calibers bigger than 22 were going to be our demise. Guns were coming with or could be fitted with the "S" word. Then "Big Bores". And sadly, every time someone was killed because it was believed they were brandishing a firearm and later found to be an air gun "THEY" (whoever "they"are) were going to come and take our rights, privileges and guns away from us. 

nada.... zip.... nothing.... not a peep.... nobody blinked....... 

AND did you do know that some states are legalizing big bore airguns to hunt large game AND, AND the state of Texas REQUIRES you to have a MINIMUM of 215 FPE muzzle energy to legally take large game? And furthermore, not all "big bores" are legal.. huh... 

And let me repeat... MINIMUM.

So that leads me to believe the 500 FPE Texan and the 700 FPE Umarex Hammer is a good thing. 

So, all ye "chicken little's" and "conspiracy theorist" don't be faint of heart and do sleep well. Your government ACTUALLY wants you to have high(er) power air guns.

Heh, 

    Maybe in Texas

Black powder rifles are capable of taking big game at 200 yards and beyond now.  Black powder revolvers reach near .44 magnum power and are repeaters.  Crossbows that look like rifles and take big game at over 100 yards and near silently.  So far both black powder guns and crossbows are pretty much unregulated.  I think it will be quite awhile before it trickles down to airguns.  Hope so anyway.

Bob in WV 

Both those weapons would be impractical for most criminals.   If things continue along the path we have been following, at some future point there may be  high powered, repeating and quiet guns available to anyone (felons, etc) without much or any regulation or background checks.   These could potentially offer much more firepower to a malicious individual than a crossbow or muzzle loader due to rate of fire and energy.   If the government tunes into this, and decides to act we (low powered airgunners) may get caught up in any regulations that come down the pike.    Witness drones.... before them RC airplanes were not regulated or on the governments radar, now registration and markings must be completed by RC pilots to do that which they've done safely and responsibly for decades.  Further, all were grounded at some point by the government, many months for my club.   Not a big deal, but I don't necessarily think our government is always reasonable and sticking our heads in the sand as newer more powerful airguns come around is not prudent either.  Still, not sure how best to delineate and separate.   

Hasta,

John

I think some airgunners have lost sight of the fact that, notwithstanding the last few years, for the last century or so the ADVANTAGES of airguns over firearms has actually been their fractional power and range; that allows shooting where it is otherwise not possible (or practical).

Like most everything else shooting related, I've tried big-bore airguns and slugs. And though I found both somewhat interesting, I've come to the conclusion that I prefer firearms for most uses beyond those covered by a powerful .25 PELLET gun. Your results may differ.

Regardless, it's a stretch to think the typical ne'er-do-well would choose a considerably more expensive, less-efficient airgun over much cheaper and immensely more efficient firearms to perpetrate evil. That said, we are talking about people (of sorts) here!         

We had a guy murder his girlfriend with a replica percussion revolver last year and I thought "Uh, oh, this is going to be it for the black powder community!" Fortunately, it never carried over into legislation. But I say fortunately. Some of you guys weren't around in 1968 with the political assassinations. It only took those to spawn the 1968 Gun Control Act. Sometimes Chicken Little catches a chunk of asteroid. It would only take one fool doing a mass shooting to put high powered airguns squarely in the crosshairs. John Q Public is still thinking Red Ryder. More folks start harvesting deer, etc, John starts thinking .30-30. That's a big difference.

As to the arguement that the high cost of PCP's will keep them out of the hands of crazies, a decent handgun will run $500 and up. An AR, $1000+. That hasn't deterred perpetrators.

Posted by: RedFeather

We had a guy murder his girlfriend with a replica percussion revolver last year and I thought "Uh, oh, this is going to be it for the black powder community!" Fortunately, it never carried over into legislation. But I say fortunately. Some of you guys weren't around in 1968 with the political assassinations. It only took those to spawn the 1968 Gun Control Act. Sometimes Chicken Little catches a chunk of asteroid. It would only take one fool doing a mass shooting to put high powered airguns squarely in the crosshairs. John Q Public is still thinking Red Ryder. More folks start harvesting deer, etc, John starts thinking .30-30. That's a big difference.

As to the arguement that the high cost of PCP's will keep them out of the hands of crazies, a decent handgun will run $500 and up. An AR, $1000+. That hasn't deterred perpetrators.

I can tell you AR's are available for much less then $1000.  And handguns perfectly functioning for less then $250. 

Whole reason I got into airguns was cheap shooting and limited carrying range.

I cringe at the thought of firing even a .22 RF at a squirrel on a limb, no way to know where that slug will    end up. Not so much with a 12 fp airgun.

The airgun power race is kinda’ getting out of hand. I have firearms for that kind of work.

Posted by: Skillet

Whole reason I got into airguns was cheap shooting and limited carrying range.

I cringe at the thought of firing even a .22 RF at a squirrel on a limb, no way to know where that slug will    end up. Not so much with a 12 fp airgun.

The airgun power race is kinda’ getting out of hand. I have firearms for that kind of work.

What he said 🙂

Ray

Yes, you can get a HiPoint pistol for dirt cheap. The point I'm making is that it is not unusual for some wacko to commit an atrocity with a firearm costing a big chunk of change. Consider that Las Vegas shooter's aresenal. For him, money was no object. Just saying that the high cost of PCP's is no deterrent and, as prices come down, people who cannot legally own a firearm may find some of these entry level models attractive and effective. I would not want to be on the receiving end of one in a stick up.

Here's some advice my wife, a non-shooter, always give me when I complain about some lame regulations imposed by people who don't have a clue. "If you're not sitting at the table when the laws are made, don't cry about it." True dat. The best thing to do, should the above event actually transpire, is to engage quickly offering expert advice. Otherwise we will see all airguns swept up into the same basket, from Daisy's to Quackenbush.

Correction RF. A decent handgun will run $200 and up. An AR, $400+... both readily available on a thriving black market. That hasn't deterred perpetrators.

A powerful, semi or full-auto air rifle costs over $1500, plus about $500 to feed it (air)... neither readily available on a thriving black market.

So for the price of ONE anemically-'powerful' (for the purpose), semi or full-auto air rifle and tank to feed it, a maniac can, and more importantly to this discussion, WILL have a nice arsenal of two ARs, two auto-pistols, a shotgun, and thousands of rounds to feed them!

Question- What would you do? Answer- What anyone in their right mind would do... and anyone OUT of their right mind too!

I think this thread has gone beyond semi or full auto guns. The OP might have used those to raise his issue. Back in the Thirties, submachine guns were heavily restricted. For decades thereafter "regular" firearms were not. It only took three high profile shootings to enact legislation. Attempted incidents since have ratched restrictions ever upward. It can take but a few irresponsible acts to get a ball rolling. Your high dollar outfit might be lumped right alongside the cheap Chinese PCP (heck, even an ubermagnum springer) which kicks it off. In short, airguns are now moving into that gray zone where black powder guns have been for a long time. It's a place of relative freedom but in which there are no guarantees about tomorrow.

Agreed RF.

Sadly, we will all be reduced to only being able to own one of these......

https://hairlover.shop/products/firing-cap-gun-buy-one-get-one-free

@airgunsoftulsaFor right now, But they will cream us in a second with that one nut that has a brother with a muti shot bigbore in the closet that learned how to use it one weekend at the family gathering.

@pistolero Sorry sir, Unless you live in a world other than mine. I have old connections and I can't get a semi auto powder burner or especially an AR on the black market anymore. They wern't that many to begin with much less in this day and age.  They are long gone in any real numbers. Maybe if you get lucky once in a blue moon now. But try depending on that if you need one in a hurry. Good luck on that.